Northwest Indiana Politics: A friendfeed-twitter debate on taxation theory

Wednesday, October 15, 2008

A friendfeed-twitter debate on taxation theory

For those of you who aren't on friendfeed or twitter, you're missing some great debates, links, and conversation on issues. Here's one just this morning, with over 30 responses in an hour or so:

Soulhuntre posted a message on Twitter

“In 2006, the top 1% of earners in the US paid 40% of all income tax... the top 5% paid 60%. The "rich" pay more than their share.”

This message got pulled into his friendfeed stream where the bulk of the comments occurred. Though some commenters also chose to republish to twitter from friendfeed so the debate could go on in both places. This is one important problem to these great debates, they're hard to follow, because they jump platforms so quickly.

But do they pay their 'fair share'? By taxing the successful even more what is really being said is some are too successful. As if there could be such a thing. Such is the world when everyone gets a ribbon merely for showing up. - Peter Simard

Soulhuntre, what you're leaving out is that the top 1% make anywhere from 10-25% of the nation's income (depends on which source one chooses to quote). Even with a flat tax system these wealthy tax-payers would still be paying the larger portion of the total taxes taken (because 30% of 10M is always going to be larger than 30% of 100,000) - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)

@Tina - hence why I support flat taxes :) - Soulhuntre

So how do we devise a system to tax the poor...or even better, how about taxing the unborn(wait they do that already)? Maybe we can cut the rich some slack and merely tax the dead? - Terence Washington

And now I get to be the rebel... exactly why we need a consumption tax (with some sort of rebate up to the poverty level) ... a system the encourages savings over spending.... the rich will always spend more then the middle class, and the poor. - Sean Reiser

However, when looking at wealth versus tax burden, the top 1% account for approximately 40% of all wealth and pay 40% of all income tax. - AJ Kohn

Peter, for the sake of argument define fair. Do we limit the success that individuals have (the fact that this runs counter to the American Dream notwithstanding)? Do we unilaterally deny them their success simply because they have the money that government need to make up its deficit( again, government irresposibility notwithstanding)? Are we going to apply that cut off to people of all income levels (even when they can't actually pay it)? Do discriminate against the rich by singling them out? - Roberto Bonini

@Sean - they call that a sales tax for the most part :) - Soulhuntre

Soulhuntre, mathematically a flat tax will have to be in the 30-40% range to match the take on the current revenue system. This means that everyone *except* the exorbitantly wealthy will be paying more. Moreover, from a livability standpoint someone making 30k is going to notice loosing 30% of their income a helluva lot more than someone making 3M. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)

Actually, I want to tax the rich more, and the poor less. The rich can afford it!! I think many of us make the common mistake of assuming that we're better off than we actually are. I don't know about you, Soul, but i'm not a millionaire. heck, i'm barely a thousand-aire. In todays economy, though, we're literally all in this together. - Chris Hollander

@sean: thats exactly the problem. The rich will *not* always spend more than the middle class, and more than the poor... in fact, its almost the opposite. the rich don't get rich by spending money, they get rich by saving it. the poor don't get poor because they save too much. The poor have greater need, and thus spend more. The rich have more privilege, and thus less need, and ultimately spend less. - Chris Hollander

@Tina: Exactly, the utility of each dollar has far more meaning for that person making 30K than it does to the one making 300K. - AJ Kohn

Punish people for creating wealth and eventually you will get to the point where it makes little sense for them to do so. Already I know a number of guys who could start companies that would employ others but they have not because it isn't worth dealing with the overburden. Even some of the progressive types in the Web 2.0 / startup world carefully avoid getting to big employee wise by using contractors to avoid regulatory / tax / oversight issues. We are stunting our own economic growth this way. - Soulhuntre

@Robert I believe a progressive tax system to be the fairest, to a point. When Reagan came in to office the top marginal tax rate was 70%. I don't think that could be considered fair by any definition. While I wouldn't like it I could live with allowing the expiration of the Bush tax cuts which would return the top marginal rate to 39%. Taxation is limiting of success by its very nature b/c it imposes an artificial premium on success equal to the level of taxation. I'd prefer BIG spending & tax cuts - Peter Simard

@Soulhuntre: Interesting, every report I read shows that small business are not decreasing in numbers and contribute essentially the same % of payroll to the economy as they did in the 1980s. - AJ Kohn

@Chris How do you tax the poor less than zero? Wealth redistribution perhaps? - Peter Simard

what percentage of the population do you think actually pays zero taxes? - Chris Hollander

In 2005, 134MM tax returns were filed. 44MM paid zero taxes. 32.6% http://www.ntu.org/main/page.p... - Brian Newman

wait. THERES A TAXPAYERS UNION? why didn't anyone tell me? where do i sign up? Do i get a free hat? - Chris Hollander

Yeah it's great! We are going to raise the dues on the top 5% so the rest of us don't have to do jack! Suckers! - Brian Newman

The way I look at it, the richer you are, the more you need the government's services to help you protect your wealth. - Victor Ganata

Sounds like a protection racket. - Brian Newman

@Brian: than you for pointing me to a link that suggests that almost 1/3 of those filing returns do not pay taxes. @Peter (or @brian?): Can you now show me the link that explains that that 1/3 is also the poorest? I should have asked, "what percentage of the poor pays zero taxes". - Chris Hollander

I think it's very enlightening that, on October 8th, I issued the challenge to people to define "fair" in such a way that it could be used for both taxes and football. *crickets* http://friendfeed.com/e/164a65... - Glen C

@AJ - given that it is much, much easier to sustain a small business now than before in many ways - the fact that there aren't more says something to me. I know many more people who are self employed now than in the 80's. They could be small businesses, but choose not to be... I am not sure that the reports you see exclude self employed but not incorporated folks, but I suspect so. - Soulhuntre

The issue of who notices their money more or who needs it more is only relevant if you believe that society has the right to take what they wish from you and that whether you deserve or need to keep your money is a morally relevant issue. I don't believe that.Whether someone needs their own property is irrelevant to whether others have a moral right to take it from them. - Soulhuntre

Again, % wealth to % tax burden is essentially even for top 1%. Also, we probably wouldn't be screaming about $70MM salary parachutes if we had a more progressive income tax. - AJ Kohn

@Chris: Some 92% of zero-tax filers earn less than $30,000 a year, according to the Tax Foundation, a non-partisan research group in Washington, D.C. That doesn't include another 15 million who earn too little to file in the first place. http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/2... - Brian Newman

but they make and control far more than that of the total % of wealth. - Morgan

@AJ - Whether or not someones wealth offends the sensibilities of the rest of society should not be the justification for confiscating it. I am all for not rewarding folks who broke the law by letting them profit - but for folks who make their money legally whether that wealth pisses others off shouldn't be relevant - but it does seem to drive lots of voters these days. - Soulhuntre

@Soulhuntre: It's not about pissing anyone off, it's simple statement that the rich, as defined by the % of wealth they have, pay a "fair" share. You choose to use income to tax ratio, others use wealth to tax ratio. You're simply choosing to be offended by the flip side of the equation. - AJ Kohn

Are you saying the rich already pay their fair share? Or their taxes need to be increased to pay their fair share? - Brian Newman

My contribution: The issue of rich v. poor is old fashioned class warfare, used for votes, but really not all that helpful in the discussion. A fairer and flatter tax would feature an eliminatin of special exeptions, a tax that's easy to understand, and hard to cheat. It's my opinion that consumption or sales taxes would fit this mold better than income or property. Daltonsbriefs

2 comments:

bobisimo said...: I'm be all for cutting everyone's taxes - rich and poor alike.

But how... ?

If only there were a way to cut spending easily enough to recoup some of that money, pay off debts, and also re-dedicate it toward necessary institutions like health care and education.

Oh, that's right! Our *obscene* military budget.

Let's cut that by 75 per cent and we'll *still* be spending almost twice the next biggest military budget (China's 65 billion). That would give us an extra 465 billion dollars annually. Whew! That was tough.; 3:00 PM
Anonymous said...: As in any previous form of government ever devised, what initially started as good in theory, has as always been replaced with a form of ruling elite vs. peasant mentality, “let them eat cake,” with greed, avarice, and human nature now morphing what should be for the good for all, into serving only the minute percentage at the top.
All previous methods of protest now prove ineffective, your vote counts nothing in a world of superdelegates, civil disobedience has no real effect, in reality they in charge are fully equiped to deal with such, and hope it is these tried and true means that are attempted. Business then goes on as usual.
In Indiana, property taxes and the process itself have gotten out of hand. I proposed an idea, distributed this idea with print, email, with the “pyramid scheme” method of one telling five, exponential distribution. This idea a novel approach, instead of all feeling a total sense of helplessness at facing the government,” We the People” realize the idea that there are thousands of us to each of those in charge, and through exercising of our rights under the law, and applying these rights to procedures, job descriptions, etc. at a rate the system was never designed to handle, we can and will gridlock any governmental agency to an extent to which they cannot over-ride. This idea, again novel in approach, has been overlooked, though simple in idea, it would be an immediate, all-encompassing fix for any governmental stupidty thrown at us, with those now secure in their arrogance, seeing firsthand what we, their bosses, can and will do when pushed past the point of reason. Just as they have warped the ideas of laws conceived to preserve a give and take between goverment and the people, in reaching a solution for the common good of all, and made it into the inevitable we give, they take,and take, it is time we take it all back to where it should be.
My proposal here is to have each person in Indiana, per county, use the tax appeal process to put the tax system itself out of business, this being one of a myriad of processes at local, state, and federal level, that if exercised by EVERY individual at every instance, would create total chaos and an inability to do for the individual what is required by law for them to do. All using the most protected rights of each individual, all written in the law, all perfectly legal. The processes, applications, settings, offices have been designed to apply bully tactics, to humiliate and intimidate the individual, instill the sense of helplessness, what can one person do against the mighty government. Broken down to individuals, very few at top levels, in small numbers of offices, force conditions on the average citizen we should never have needed to live. It is when the individuals bullied, realize as a whole the bully is powerless against the many united, that eventually the wrong is righted, the bully no longer able to again use the tactics for control.
My proposal in Indiana is to have all taxpayers file form 130, forcing them to schedule all at a tax appeal board meeting, not possible if at 20-30 minutes per taxpayer, 20000 filing. The first possibility of sucess, not knowing if my ideas were passed on, or others thought it up, but Marion County released re-assesment tax bill a few weeks ago, a first wave of 10000 appeals flooded in, the system is backlogged according to the Indianapolis Star 6-8 years at the previous rate, this in the first 2 days of a 45 day appeal window, they have no idea how to proceed….I really don’t think 10000 came up with that on their own….We will have to see in my home county, and state-wide, how far reaching my paperwork spread, I cannot tell, but at least in Marion County, someone ran with it….
This was my first plan, it actually needing a large percentage of citizens to agree and act, there too being the possibility of individually “facing the enemy” should they try to process as usual, many truly fearful of then being placed on the proverbial “list” for payback in the future, many buying into the fears manufactured by the government.
Once freed of the previous limitations of protest, my idea in reality not being a protest but individuals taking advantage of their rights as Americans, with the realization by all that those against whom we wish to address issues no longer having a say in the proceedings, that their own rules of ways to question their authority no longer have any merit, that we the people can and will at every instance of tyranny, ineptitude, greed, arrogance, can and will from this point on, take their working environment out at a moment’s notice, and will only grant a repreive when apologies have been given, processes begun to right the wrongs, and promises made to get back to the ideals the founding fathers dreamed possible, when bullied by the same governmental interference those in power have returned this very nation back to. We all do understand the need of taxation and services, it it the pork and bloat that has to go, the illegal and illogical….
The distillation of our rights under the law, their job descriptions, methods, office procedures, all distilled down to the ” least common denominator,” allows even simpler examples, involving smaller percentages, with greater immediate impact.
One example, our right to receive information from any public servant, at any level, any time, as many times as needed, whether the question be good or bad, relevent or irrelevent, to the citizen it is important, those in government when hired are more than versed in the idea that ” no question is a stupid question,” , it is in their job descriptions. From the office procedure arena, we distill down to that item that no governmental agency in the modern era can function without, the phone system, and then combine the two, at a rate again it is not possible to deal with. Small cards, as per wallet-sized sports schedules, with all pertinent county, state, federal numbers on each. All required to answer anything “We the People” wish to ask, we each having a combination of a cell phone, 3 minutes per day, once a day to run the list, and in the very small chance of getting through, ask away. Any legitimate business now needing to be done by mail, or at the office windows in person, total meltdown of any agency or office making that weeks or months list.( A website needed to address each week/month’s “hit list’”) A one week initial period to show what can be permanent, a statement sent of a 3 month reprieve to start the repairs and changes necessary to eliminate ALL the waste in EVERY office and division, and the promise that if none noted or initiated, a one month then 6 month meltdown, etc., until permanent silence is given. This once again, all perfectly legal, within the scope of what they are required to do, BY LAW, it having no fix on their side, other than doing as is required, we doing as stated, and living up to our guidelines and timelines. Or any other action deemed effective, I am trying to plant the seed, others can most probably fine tune as needed….
Again, this one of an infinite number of legal actions we can and will apply, with no need for input or rebuttal by them in any way, shape or form. Any manipulation of our rights, forces immediate lawsuit, bankruptcy by attorney actions, their is no answer to the public exercising their rights, we are doing nothing illegal.
Run this by anyone you speak with, have them judge themselves that with ALL seeing the ease of this approach, the immediacy of those we vote in seeing our response to the idiocy we live with daily, that this is truly an immediate solution to begin correction by those stepping outside the Constitution, in piling the Trillions on even future generations, that it will work,then view the immediate smile by all that “we don’t have to take it any more.” Someone with your connections and stature is needed, with the means to disemminate these ideas, or other ideas using the same basis, I am a small fish in a small pond, but try my best….Any feedback , positive or negative, would be appreciated, I have attempted to write some, but have no idea where to start, or if I am too idealistic in thinking this easy of process and idea might be the solution we all have missed….. I appreciate any time given reading this…Thanks much; 6:36 PM

Wednesday, October 15, 2008

A friendfeed-twitter debate on taxation theory

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